Women Belong in the...with Guest Becky Johnson, Lead Pastor of Jesus Culture Sacramento

In this episode of the 'I Don't Even Like Women' podcast, Natalie and Becky Johnson, Lead Pastor of Jesus Culture Sacramento explore the complexities of women's roles in ministry, the challenges of vulnerability in the age of social media, and the importance of supportive relationships. They discuss the need for women to champion each other, navigate their callings, and the sacrifices that come with leadership. The conversation emphasizes the significance of understanding one's calling, the dynamics of supportive partnerships, and the necessity of having open discussions about women's roles in the church.

• Women are capable of wearing many hats and fulfilling various roles.
• Vulnerability on social media can lead to both support and criticism.
• Opposition often indicates that one is on the right path.
• It's important to manage the tension of social media rather than trying to solve it.
• Women need to advocate for their roles and titles in ministry.
• Supportive partnerships are crucial for women in leadership.
• Not all women have the luxury to choose their roles; many work out of necessity.
• Conversations about women's roles in ministry should be initiated by both men and women.
• Women should not feel guilty for pursuing their callings, regardless of societal expectations.
• Sacrifices are often necessary to pursue leadership roles in ministry.

Follow Becky at @beckyfoxjohnson

Transcript

All right, everyone will welcome back to the I don't even like women podcast coming to you from the raise to stay podcast, but my new book comes out in September and I decided that I wanted everyone to hear from some of my favorite sacred sisters who have meant the world to me. Some I've known for a long time others I'm just getting to know but I want to tell you that there are some amazing women in the kingdom of God, amazing women in the family of God who are helping each other debunk some of these lies about friendship and women, where women belong, what it looks like to be a woman who follows Jesus and overall just a daughter of God. And today I have Becky Johnson with me, Pastor Becky Johnson from Jesus Culture. And she and I met back in September when we did a conference together. We were roommates, which is crazy because I normally don't share hotel rooms with people.

But we knew that we would get along immediately. So we told the people, hey, we will share a room and an instant sacred sisterhood was formed. So Becky, welcome to the podcast. Please tell everyone a little bit about yourself. Let's dive right in.

Becky Johnson (01:11.916)
Yes, I'm so happy to be on here. I am so excited for this conversation. I just love you. I've never roomed with somebody. It was a blind date roommate situation. And I'm just like, it was so divine. It was so Holy Spirit because you were the sister I knew I needed but couldn't find. And so I'm just so grateful for you. And you've been such a gift to me in my life in such a short amount of time. It's been really beautiful.

I am the lead pastor of Jesus Culture Sacramento. That is a new role for me. I took on the lead pastor position in January of 2025. And so I've been with Jesus Culture for 14 years, started as an intern. So just a crazy story of intern to lead pastor, staying faithful to a ministry in a local church. And I've got in the midst of that, I've got

I've gotten married. I've been married for 16 years. My husband is our worship pastor here at the church. We have three kids in all the stages. have an 11-year-old, a 7-year-old, and a 4-year-old. So that's what I do in ministry and in life. also, like you said, we've met on the road. I travel. So travel.

and do full-time ministry and have three kids at home. I don't homeschool. People say, there anything you don't do? I don't homeschool. I don't have the grace for that. There's just no way. That is an amazing full-time gig in and of itself. So that's little bit about me.

Natalie (02:42.341)
Well, it's interesting because throughout the course of all of these different podcasts, one thing that has just stuck out to me is just how amazing women are. And we wear so many hats. We can do so many things. It feels like the Lord has graced us as his daughters to be able to do many different things with many different talents, many different seasons, parenting, being in ministry, working full time in corporate world. Let's talk a little bit about the opinions that women have, not just about what they do, but about what each other does. And this is why you and I sort of bonded was because I had posted something about encouraging women who work that your kids are gonna be fine. Everything's gonna be all right. And then you posted something about being a executive pastor who's also a mom. And the comment section in your post mirrored a lot of what was coming to me in mine which was a bunch of Christian women telling us what we shouldn't be doing as women. And give me a little bit of backstory on that post because it was a beautiful image of you preaching with your children kind of in that photo.

Becky Johnson (03:50.562)
Yeah, I posted I was getting ready to go preach and I was holding my, she was three at the time and I was holding her, just comforting her. She was, I don't know, tired or whiny or something and someone had snapped a photo and I thought, this is my life. Like here are my, and I talked about it. It's so funny that you say that. I might get emotional. Cause in that post, you know, have these moments where you just decide to be vulnerable online, which is so hard. And half the time you're like, why did I even share my heart? But then,

You do feel this, I feel this call sometimes to like rally around women who are doing what we're doing or just rally around women in general. Like we have to be vulnerable and model that. But anyway, I had this moment of vulnerability on social media. I regretted it afterwards, which has, we could talk about, but I shared, I said, these are my two loves. Here are my two, my two hearts. I love the local church. I love.

that I love the call to preach and I love my children. And I was kind of in this, it was just a very raw processing caption. said, man, sometimes it feels like is there room for both loves? And I sometimes feel torn into in that like, man, I wanna give my all to both. And that is true. That is actually.

You know, I've come to not regret that I did say that and that is true. I want to give my all to both. And then in the end, you know, I just said something like, I find that the that what's in our heart is from the Lord and he's enough. And I for all the areas that I lack in both passions, the Lord makes up for. But here it is like my two loves. And it just felt like that picture encapsulated that moment in the comments. You know, the gist of the comments. There were the women who

see it or the other women in ministry are like, wow, thank you for putting language. And then there were women that were like, well, you're torn because it's wrong and you feel heavy because you are abandoning your family and you should just give your all only to your children. And my gosh, it was just so painful, which, you know, we know all the things there's trolls and who cares about the comments, but man, we also are.

Becky Johnson (06:11.446)
women and we are tender and we are sensitive and that did hurt. I just in my naivety, I didn't expect that. I did not expect to encounter that. I haven't been as vulnerable on social media before. was one of the more just open posts. And yeah, it was that you well, it's hard because and that whole thing that just talking about debunking myths, the

narrative that if it's hard, it's not from the Lord is just so crazy. It's been something that I've really wrestled through and then have helped, you know, younger women walk through because that is what culture says. Like, if it's hard, it's not from God. If it's difficult, it's because there's opposition because you're doing what God doesn't want you to do. I'm guys, let's read the Bible. There's opposition because it's what you're supposed to do.

It's hard because that is the way of the cross. Answering the call of God is difficult and the enemy opposes it. there are weapons formed against us, right, that do try to oppose when you answer the call. And so I think, man, of course that's another tactic of the enemy to convince us that opposition means you're doing something wrong. I think opposition means you're doing something right.

There's different forms of it. There is like when God opposes you in pride, you want to pay attention to that. yeah, when women say, it hard being a mom and in full-time ministry? Yes, it is really, really hard. But that does not mean it's because it's wrong. That does not mean it's because God isn't pleased with what I'm doing. If anything, it's hard because it's the right thing.

And that wrestle is good. We should lean into the wrestle and, you know, just have to reframe that whole concept. So.

Natalie (08:14.685)
Sure, and I think there's two women listening to this podcast. There's one woman who's having to drop her child off at daycare for the first time because she has no choice. It's hard, she has to work. She doesn't have the luxury of being able to stay home. And so there's that tension of it's hard to drop my kid off.

at a daycare while I go work. And then we have the other listener who might be a stay at home mom or someone who is home with their children part time. And it's hard because they have dreams of starting a ministry or going and working in the workforce, but they're choosing this hard to be home with their children. And God meets us in that hard. And sometimes you're right, we think because it's hard, it's wrong or we're in the wrong or we're not hearing from the Lord. And I love how

you sent me I think a screenshot of that post that I was in a movie with my girls. And of course, big sister Natalie is like, no, like, I'm gonna go after these comments. And in my flesh, I did I think I erased a few but I did keep one. And I think that that's part of that sisterhood of being able to defend one another and say, Look, you don't get to tell my friend that she doesn't hear from the Lord. And you don't get to tell my friend who's staying at home that she's sacrificing success because

she wants to be home with her children or telling a working mom, the only reason she works is because she wants the finer things of life. And I think social media has given us this weird access into people's life to give our opinion. Let's talk a little bit about the social media piece because I do think you're right. Vulnerability is a double edged sword. It's either giving people like myself a moment to take a breath and say, I don't feel so guilty in this space now or

to allow me a open forum to just pass judgment on people. So what are you learning as you're pastoring people, as you're pastoring online, because that's also part of your job? Do you regret vulnerability or is it more of just being more tender and sensitive to when you're vulnerable?

Becky Johnson (10:10.712)
Yeah.

Becky Johnson (10:17.836)
I think, you know, but yeah, definitely in my flesh afterwards, I'm like, why did I share that? You know, my gosh. And I'll kind of have seasons if anybody follows me on social media, I get like hyperactive and then hyper inactive and hyperactive and hyper inactive. And I find those moments when I am posting more and sharing parts of these parts of my life, women from both like camps, the stay at home moms and the working moms are like, thank you for showing us a little bit of your journey or.

You know, like they feel just seen or known and there's a lot of support and I find that there's so much beauty in that. Like that's when I love social media. You know, it's like, this is so great. It broadens our perspective. It helps us not feel alone. It helps us form sisterhood. And then I kind of pull away. I'm like, you you get the couple of edgy comments or you just feel misunderstood and just want to pull away. And so I think we talk about edgy in our staff.

we talk about, I took this leadership principle from someone else, that there are two ways to see issues. They're either a problem to solve or attention to manage. And a problem to solve means it has a solution and when you give it the right solution, the problem goes away. So a problem to solve is like a broken system or your calendar. Like, you you put the right solution at it and it goes away. But attention to manage is something that

is never gonna go away, because it's a tension you have to manage. So it's like we say, money is not a problem to solve. It doesn't matter how much money I throw at something, I'm always gonna have to manage the amount of money I have. So money, budgets are a tension to manage. And we've kind of adopted that, Derek and I, my husband, in our life, where we're looking at things going, okay, is this a problem to solve or a tension to manage? Because if it's a tension to manage, but you try to solve it.

you're exhausted because you keep trying to throw a solution at something that's actually not ever going to go away. I don't know if that makes sense, but I think social media is that. Social media is not this problem that's going to be solved. It's not going away. Trolls aren't going away. Immature people aren't going away. Comments are not going away. You know this better than anybody. So social media is a tension to manage. And how do we manage that tension? How much credence do we give to comments? How much do we engage?

Becky Johnson (12:40.394)
You know, I think we all know this, social media has taken away facial expressions. Facial expressions are how we see how we are impacting people. If you start to wince when I share, then I'm picking up clues from your face that say, Natalie's in pain. Maybe I should adjust my tone. Maybe I shouldn't say that. That looks like that hurt her. Social media has robbed us of facial expressions. And so we have...

We're just saying things, you know, that woman who commented that didn't see the tears well up in my eyes as I read her words. You know, she didn't see the pain inflicted. And I think we just have to be aware of that, especially as women, which I'll just say, I have no shame in saying this, the psychology science is out, women are more catty.

Surprise, just psychologically, we are more catty than men, and that is true. Men have their tendencies and their things too, but women just psychologically, we are more socially aggressive towards one another, just psychologically. And we have to be aware of that because that unchecked, that without tone, that without facial expressions can get really nasty online. I have to watch, and I want to comment, and I want to...

defend. I have to think of the woman on the other side. And I think that that's the tension that we manage in social media. And when you no longer care about managing that, this is what I think you're just in. You're not helping the cause of women. You're not helping heal, hurt, or, you know, bridge these sisterhood gaps, which I love what your book talks about. You know, it's so, actually when we met,

Natalie (14:16.955)
No.

Becky Johnson (14:28.77)
before you even told me you were writing, I think you were finishing it. I think I had said in our hotel room, like, I don't even like women. Why am at a women's event? You're like, my gosh, that's the title of my book. And as I read it, I thought, wow, the amount of women you've encountered who've said that and I, same. we need to think about that. Maybe that's part of the reason why is because how we engage with one another socially, you don't just have permission.

Social media is not instant permission. still something, it's a new field of communication that we need to learn how to manage really well.

Natalie (15:08.399)
It is. And I think for those of us who grew up half of our lives with it and half of us without it, you know, we're still navigating, it's still new, a new tool that we have. And I want to talk a little bit about, you know, what it looks like to as women who have men in our lives as adults who have championed us. Now, my, you know, I want to keep in context that growing up perhaps as little girls, we

probably have different experiences. But as women in our 20s and 30s, you've been championed by Pastor Banning and by Derek. I've been championed by nearly every pastor I've worked under as a woman to follow the call of the Lord on my life. My husband is a massive champion of mine. You and I could not do what we do without the support of our brothers and our husbands. So we've been blessed to have men in our lives say, see what God's put inside of you, run with it, right?

But we also know that there are women in those comment sections who have not only had fathers and brothers and uncles and people, pastors tell them that they cannot do things, that that then carries over into their adult beliefs about where women should be, where women shouldn't be. Let's talk about your shift in Jesus culture from youth pastor to being an executive lead pastor at a church that...

Becky Johnson (16:13.824)
Hmm.

Becky Johnson (16:19.821)
Yeah.

Natalie (16:25.299)
is very well known by name, but also because of the way your pastor has stewarded women. Let's talk about that tension without going into a theological debate on whether or not women can preach. That's a different conversation. But let's talk about what that's been like for you being young. I mean, you're in your what, 30s? You're still very young. What does that look like?

Becky Johnson (16:31.841)
Yeah.

Becky Johnson (16:38.518)
Yeah, that's a whole different podcast.

Becky Johnson (16:47.17)
Gosh, it's so true. I just love your ability to see all sides is just really helpful. think it's why God's given you such a platform and favored you so much because you really, like to think of the woman listening who's dropping her kid off at daycare, the woman who has no choice to the woman who is choosing to stay at home and to everyone in between. I just want to say, like not everybody does that. And it's just such a grace on your life. And I think it's why it's

you're doing so much for women and sisterhood in that way because it's just really unique and I don't hear it often. So I just want to thank you for that. I will answer that in just a sec. But I have a sister who's no choice. She doesn't have a choice. And growing up, my mom didn't have a choice. I don't have a choice. The luxury to be a stay-at-home mom is a luxury. And that's really beautiful for women who can do that and choose that and love that.

But there is this whole camp of women who are working because it's their passion and working because it's their livelihood. Single moms to two income, you know, like I just want to recognize that. And I think I think that's just that that woman is too forgotten. I think that the one who's like, hey, actually, this isn't even a choice for me. And so whether I love it or I'd rather be home, this is what this is where I'm at. And so I think that that's

I try to remember that woman a lot when I'm talking and when I'm sharing. I think I just want to, if she's listening, just we see you and we love you. I'm actually, I'm one of you. It would be a massive life shift to go to one income. Hello in California. But you're right. Lots of women ask, how do you do it? I'm sure for you too. How do you do it? Ministry and writing and moming.

I could not without my husband. He is legitimately the other half of me, has been a huge support. And not every woman has a husband who is willing to do that. He's laid down a lot of his life to make space for me. so it's been really, I'm just really grateful. I just count it as God's grace and faithfulness to me that he knew what he was gonna call me to and he gave me the husband that I needed.

Becky Johnson (19:13.934)
for that. So that's been really beautiful. you're right, you know, my senior pastor from the jump, I was started as an intern. I was the youth pastor for a while, for a long time. Then I transitioned to executive pastor for three years, I did that and then into lead pastor. And to give over, you know, a pretty well known church to a young woman who's not a blood daughter was a huge risk.

Banning has felt early on in his life to be a champion of women in ministry and to give a voice and a place for them. He says all the time, which I so appreciate, he said, if we want to see women empowered in ministry, it has to be the men having the conversations because they're the gatekeepers. Women have the conversation all the time. He's like, it's just women asking for a place with no real authority to give one.

But it's really, we can say that, it's predominantly male. It's a field of men who are in authority positions. There are more men in authority in church than women at large. And so he'll say often, men, we have to have these conversations. It doesn't really go anywhere if women are around a table talking about how they need to lead in church. The men need to have these conversations. So he's been a huge champion of that and a huge voice.

for that and I'm so grateful for the way he's opened those doors and I'm sure you do as well. I get a lot of young women will say, I have a call to ministry, but I'm in a church that doesn't believe in it. What do I do? And to that I say, you have to know you're called there because you're either called there to help shift things or God has you there for a purpose and things he's forming in you. But if you feel

You know, if you can't stay and honor the theology of the house, the empowerment that you're given, then you have to ask the Lord if you're to be somewhere else because it's more damaging to be there frustrated. You're, you know, eventually it will lead to resentment and divisiveness because you'll be angry. You don't have a place. So if you really feel the call to be in a lead role that you won't be given in your church, I don't want to do like a permission to leave the church. think permission to ask the Lord.

Becky Johnson (21:29.078)
Am I supposed to be here? And to know like God, if you're supposed to be there and you are called, God's gonna make a way. God's gonna open doors, right? And we'll adjust things. But sometimes I think we have to, we do have to get to that spot and know like it'll be healthier for me to go somewhere where I'm gonna be able to honor the leadership of the house. And I think too, I do think too many women are staying in places where they're.

Stuck quote-unquote stuck and they're limited and they're just they're mad. And so I just it's not healthy for you It's not healthy for the leadership of that house and it's okay We can recognize there are theological differences in the body of Christ and if you can't stay in a place of honor and Submission to whatever that house says you can and cannot do you've got to go to where you've got to go to where you can stay in that place of honor and so I think you know

Even for me, and I think about that, like, what if I would have been in a church that didn't allow this? You know, I think at the end of the day, I would have had to ask the Lord, you know, are you calling me here? I think really for me, I know I'm called the Jesus culture. So I just would have been at Jesus culture and trusted that the Lord was going to make the pathway open and

do what he was gonna do, but that's where I kept coming to it. It wasn't really, I'm at this church because they believe women in ministry, or I'm at this church because I know there will be a lead position for me. I was at this church because this is where God called me and planted me. And so I think that's where more women have to get of like, not position, you want the position or the title, is are you supposed to be at that church in this season? Because if you stay faithful to that, I think God will open up doors.

Natalie (23:14.099)
And

Natalie (23:19.097)
I also think this is a huge conversation for young single women who are listening to this because I don't know that we, when we meet a man, we're thinking, I wonder what he thinks about women in ministry. Like, because my sweet husband married me when I was a gym teacher. Now, you know, he knew I was a pastor's kid. He knew I was a worship leader, but I wasn't a pastor.

Becky Johnson (23:32.846)
Yeah.

Natalie (23:42.311)
when my husband married me. And I remember seeing attributes in him, seeing how his parents championed women, how he championed me. And I never once thought I wonder what his posture would be if I carried title pastor. And

Becky Johnson (23:56.75)
Hmm.

Natalie (23:58.013)
Thankfully, I married a man who believes that I can do that, that I'm able to lead, that he leads me as my husband. But there is a very real conversation that not only are we asking ourselves, can I stay at this church? Can I be part of this church? But also, whoever I marry, I want to know that if God shifts my life into a direction of leadership, what is my husband's position on that? And that's that equally yoked thing that's almost as important as

where we stand in our denominational doctrine viewpoints.

Becky Johnson (24:32.43)
Oh my gosh, I think absolutely. I think that's probably a really undervalued stance to talk through for sure. Because again, and I'm sure you have as well, meet a lot of women who didn't know that their husbands weren't in agreement with that. And now here they are. And I'm like, wow, I think that that's really something to think about. Same for us, I met him when I was 15.

We got married when I was 19. I was not on the trajectory to become a pastor, but that has been, I'm not going to act like it's not come without its difficulties. Like I'm not only his pastor at church, I'm his boss. You know, like that's a whole nother trick. Absolutely. And so we've had to definitely navigate that and talk through that. I think I had posted at one time something about, you know, like misconceptions.

Natalie (25:15.283)
It's a whole other level of security in a man.

Becky Johnson (25:30.146)
that people have about women in ministry. And I said, know, the misconception is that, because you lead in ministry and in church, you must dominate your husband in the home. Like that's kind of how people think I must just be this, you know, I am, I'm type A, I'm high dominance, but in the, you know, people, it's been kind of sad for me to see how people interact with Derek, like, you must just be some kind of pushover and Becky just runs the home. And we've just kind of settled on this phrase, the best way we could put it is,

He recognizes my call to lead in the church and I recognize his call to lead in the home. And I am submitted in the home. He is the spiritual head. It doesn't mean he runs over me. We co-parent, we lead our home together, but I have no problem recognizing, yeah, biblically, he is the spiritual head of our home and I submit to that authority and I submit to his leadership in our life. Likewise, he submits to my leadership in the church and recognizes

Natalie (26:02.969)
Amen.

Becky Johnson (26:27.746)
He'll be the first one to tell you, I don't have the call to lead like Becky does. I don't have the grace on my life or the anointing to lead teams, to lead the church the way she does. it's just, yeah, it just is it. And we've had to have a mutual understanding there. And I think that that's really good for, especially as I think God is, I don't think God is calling more women now. People, I've heard that, like God's calling more women into ministry now. I just think.

think God has always called women into ministry. He didn't just eradicate 50 % of his army. He's always called women into ministry. I think more women are answering the call now because there's greater permission. I think the church is really growing in that. But as the young women, single women listening or dating, this is a conversation to have, especially if you feel that call early on, don't ignore that call.

Don't say, my future spouse will be okay with it. Don't assume that. Have these conversations. Work this out now. Because it's a massive, that's a massive deal.

Natalie (27:38.385)
Well, you and I both just came from the UK and we know there's a lot of cultural differences. There's also a ton of differences in the church and I don't know if you have figured this out yet, but they do not like the term pastor's wife. Now, I have been in many of women's ministries over there and I have preached on their Sunday mornings to men and women as well as just to women's that has been the number one correction that I receive is do not call

the pastor's wife because they are also pastors. so that has been interesting. I want to just talk about Beth or Beth Allison Barr has a new book out called Becoming Pastor's Wife and how becoming a pastor's wife has actually replaced women becoming ordained in the church because when they become pastor's wives, they instantly go into women's ministry or into something that is now

Becky Johnson (28:12.972)
I love that.

Natalie (28:35.751)
Secondary now I agree with our UK sisters that if you are a wife of a pastor you are just as much Part of pastoring the people of that church as the pastor But let's talk about some of these unfair roles that women do get pigeonholed into into church women's ministry being one of them and how we can gently begin to lead our churches into some conversations of Potentially, hey women can also sit

in boardrooms, women can sit and have decision making conversations just as they did in Acts chapter one, when it says that the disciples, including the women were literally in there when they were voting on who was going to replace Judas, which I do believe was a business meeting. So let's talk about like the tension of that conversation. And if a woman is struggling with like, how do I do that in my church? That's pro women, like there are four women, but there's nobody that represents us in those spaces.

Becky Johnson (29:19.15)
Thanks.

Becky Johnson (29:33.166)
That's so good. my gosh. I think, right, we know they get relegated to administration. I'm tired of women being called church administrators who are actually pastors. Like you actually are carrying all the responsibility of the pastor without the title. That frustrates me. One of my biggest encouragements to women, I've had a lot of women I've mentored in that space, I'm called the director. I'm a student director. I'm a children's coordinator. I'm a ministry's administrator. And I ask them what they do. I'm like, so you're pastoring.

And I just send them straight. I think the worst thing you could do is talk about it among staff or bury the frustration. think who says, I mean, the scripture would even tell us, if you have an issue with a brother, talk to your brother. I just, I don't care how lead pastor your lead pastor is, how high up they are, talk to them. Talk to your upline, talk to your supervisor.

and just have that conversation. I'm carrying all the responsibility of a pastor. Why am I not called a pastor? And do know what I have found in the 10 years of mentoring women is one, they'll have the conversation and the leadership will say, my gosh, we're so sorry. We didn't even think about it. No woman has asked. So it's been decades of women not even asking. And when they get asked, what they find is the leadership actually is excited. And yes, we will.

They're just giving the title that has always, Sister Sinclair had that title forever, so you had that title too. And so it's been an open door of beautiful conversation and pioneering that now we've got women who can be the first woman pastor in that role. So there's leadership that's like, no one's even asked us. Thank you for asking. Let's go on that journey. Or it leads to the sometimes painful but necessary conversation of we don't believe in women pastors.

And then that's when they get to have, you just, get to that crossroads of then, do you want to stay? And I've had women say, I do want to stay. I feel called here. I'll be okay without the title of pastor. And then there's women who go, no, I don't, I'm not okay with that. I want to see change. And that's great. So, or there's then there's the third option where they have the conversation. The leadership doesn't believe in it. And then it leads to change. And that's amazing. And I've walked with so many women.

Becky Johnson (31:57.624)
who, you know, and then I come to think, is this, you know, is this, was this your Esther moment? Is this why you were born? To actually be the one who would be willing to go before leadership and fight for, or even just advocate for this and the open door. Now generations of women will come after them and be blessed and be empowered because it took one person to have the conversation. So I'd say don't wait for some other woman to voice the concern or frustration or whatever.

have the conversation. And it's not to say that women shouldn't be children's pastors and women's pastors. They should. Sometimes that's where they're called, but it's not the only option. Women can, I believe women can fulfill all the roles and all of the different responsibilities in a church depending on where it's really, I mean.

we're talking about this in culture, it's like, we going to give people the, are we going to do it for, because it's merited or is it, you know what I mean? Or is it equity? It's like, no, it's not. You shouldn't be the, you shouldn't get the pastoral just because you're a woman and they need more women. No, be a woman who deserves it. Show up. You know, like this is what I'm telling women, like go and study your word. Become a good communicator. Become a good leader. Learn leadership principles.

Learn how to lead volunteers. Start a small group. Get tested in this so that you can sit at a table and say, I'm not here just because I'm the token woman. I'm here because it's merited. I've worked at this. I'm a trustworthy leader. I'm proven. I put the work in. I was working on this when no one saw it, when nobody was looking my way because I wanted to show up and be

I wanted to be someone who could be trusted in my church. I wanted to be someone who could do a good job. And it doesn't, the last thing I'd want is women fulfilling positions just because they're women and they griped about it. You know, that we don't want to be those women. Put me at the table because I'm a woman and I'm tired of all the men being here. If you want to be at that table, be someone who could, be someone who deserves to be at that table. Become someone.

Natalie (34:07.282)
Mm-mm.

Becky Johnson (34:17.89)
who can hold your weight in the boardroom. And I had to do that, which meant I had to sacrifice a lot of things, Natalie. And I don't know if we wanna go there. There are women who want the place at the boardroom, but they also wanna be at every basketball game and be at every nap and be, you just can't, like you can't have both. And it's like, you can't exit the workforce, go home for 10 years and come back and expect a place that doesn't work that way.

And so I had to sacrifice what I thought motherhood was going to look like. I thought I was going to be the Montessori, Plato mom at every play, but I wasn't. And cause I actually started to feel called to the church and to leadership, which meant I had to miss some moments. didn't sacrifice my family. didn't do what I felt was out of, you I didn't do what I thought was disobedience, but I wasn't, I wasn't a stay at home mom and becoming

boardroom, Becky. I wasn't. So I had to adjust what motherhood looked like for me because I did feel this call to leadership and I wanted to answer that call. And so I think too, I've had women not respond so well to that, you know, cause I think we're also fed this lie of I can have it all. No, you can't. You can't have it all at the same time. You cannot be the fully, you know, present like 24 seven stayed home mom and

be growing in your leadership at church, like there has to be give and take. And so I had a husband who was willing and a community, and we also made sacrifices. We just did, you know, had to deal with the judgment of not being at the park at noon on Wednesday because I actually wanted to be at the meeting and learn how to have confrontation. neither is bad. It's just what I felt called to. But women, we cannot be unfair and say, I want to go home.

for 10 years, be a stay at home mom, and then I wanna come back in church and have a place for me. Well, when you come back, you're gonna have to start where we all started. I think you don't just get to show up and demand a place because you're a woman. So I think that's something we've seen too, where banning is like, men are empowered because men are there. And there's women who aren't willing to sacrifice things.

Natalie (36:23.335)
Mm-hmm.

Becky Johnson (36:44.226)
Now, whether, you we won't talk about is it right or wrong, because that's not, you can't answer that for anybody but yourself. That was right for my family. But I just, I think it's not right to lead women astray and say, you can have it all. You can, you can't.

Natalie (36:57.148)
No.

No, if you're listening to this and you're like, well, where is this biblically? Well, we can go to Judges 4.

Becky Johnson (37:06.017)
Yes.

Natalie (37:06.915)
in the life of Deborah and see that Deborah was under that palm tree every day, rightly ruling the people of Israel. And we know that Deborah had a family. know she wasn't just some queen that sat under a palm tree and expected people to come to her and for them to serve her. She served the people. And we see when Barak invites her into battle, it's not because he couldn't handle the battle. It's because he trusted that she was where she said she was going to be. And she heard from the Lord and this invitation of our brothers to invite

us into battle, into conversation is because we are where we say we're going to be and we are modeling the fact that we hear from the Lord. And so there is biblical context to this and even in the message you preach about Mary and Martha and the worship and that there is also a place of being consistently at the feet of Jesus and you're not going to also be invited into very prophetic spaces if you're not spending time.

In the secret place, you're not going to be given public arenas if your secret place is non-existent. So there is hard work, you guys, spiritually, physically, corporately, that comes with being a woman. And you're right. Our gender is not a free pass to behave however we want, to say whatever we want, and to demand things from a church that is built on both the unity of male and female. So...

you have just given us a ton to think about and I want to give you a chance to pray over everyone. But guys, if you're listening, I want to encourage you to go follow Becky on social media. She shares beautiful messages that she teaches. She also gives you some insight into what she's feeding her family, which is also one of my favorite Becky Johnson sagas, as she tries to get her children to eat food from the 90s. Listen, we're all in this.

Becky Johnson (38:51.008)
It's real.

Natalie (38:51.635)
I felt so invested into that as my own children won't eat anything but chicken nuggets and.

Becky Johnson (38:56.718)
my gosh, what happened to us? We just got soft. The 90s just...

Natalie (39:00.243)
We got Chick-fil-A around every corner is the problem. But I want to encourage you guys to stay close with Becky and just to watch what God's doing through her ministry. Becky, if you wouldn't mind just praying over everyone listening, that would be awesome.

Becky Johnson (39:14.658)
Yeah. God, I thank you for the women that are listening. I thank you for every individual call. I just want to bless your calling. I want to bless your ministry, whether it's at home or in the marketplace or in the church. You have a ministry, you have influence and you have a purpose. And so we bless every unique individual listening. And I just want to pray grace for you to embrace the season you are in and to embrace the challenges in front of you to not shy away from the call of God.

I pray that there would be clarity, that you would hear Him clearly and see Him clearly, that any fog, any deception, any confusion or lies would break right now in the name of Jesus as you're listening and things would come into a clarity of vision for what you are purposed and destined to do. I pray that you would form sacred sisterhoods, that there would be reconciliation. If there's women coming to mind that you know you need to reconcile with and apologize to,

I pray that the Holy Spirit would grace you to have those conversations in humility, bathed in grace and the love of Jesus. I pray for healing over hearts that have been broken. I pray for healing over disappointment and resentment. I pray for a freedom to come upon you, to be fully alive and fully engaged into what God has placed on you and where you are now. I thank God for these women. I truly thank God for the women listening and for the sisters around the world.

who love Jesus and just want to do their best to say yes to him. I pray blessing over every single one of you. In Jesus name, amen.

Natalie (40:52.143)
Amen. Well, thank you everyone for listening to the I Don't Even Like Women podcast. We'll be back next week for another episode and I look forward to shifting some of these lies back into the biblical truth of who we are as daughters and friends in Christ. We'll see you next time.